Demi Agaiby 13:31
Yes. She basically, to paint the picture for you. Tore her ACL, had the surgery and then which is very common in ACL injuries. She retore it along that process. There was a lot of other things that happened that basically complicated her specific injury process in her healing process. And so she came to me after the second surgery, and basically we started the first session just unpacking and being like, how did it feel for you to progress so much? She actually retore her ACL when she was testing for like her basically passing to pass the test on PT, they have to pass certain tests. So she was doing the test. And then tore it. And having her sit with those emotions in a really visceral way. And the discomfort that brought that, that whole experience brought on. And that is really, really important for any injury process, especially if it’s prolonged, because there’s a lot of talk about just get better, just keep pushing. Just heal. Just. You’re constantly going towards that like finish line. And it can be exhausting. Which is why, you know, in these prolonged injury recoveries, there’s a lot of burnout is because it’s a lot of stress mentally and physically. And we basically I do this activity where I take a paper plate and I divide it into six areas, and I say, what are the areas that you want to work on? What are the areas, the mental areas that you think would be most relevant to you? And she basically divided it up into what she was struggling with. One of the things she was struggling with was avoidance. She was really fearful of returning to jumping because that’s how she entered herself in the first place, right? So when a lot of the work that we did was okay in physical therapy this week, we’re going to start jumping. I’m really anxious about it. How are. How do I. How do I manage this anxiety. Right. And she filled that. A lot of it too was related to identity. Identity. There were some mental toughness components, some burnout, some self-care resilience.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 16:14
So she’s like mapping out the work for you of what she wants to work on with you.
Demi Agaiby 16:19
Yes. And I, I like this approach because especially in the in where she was in her injury, I mean, she’s 16, 17, she’s 17 where she was in this wrote a place in her recovery. She knew very well. Like this is what I’m struggling with mentally, right?
Dr. Leigh Weisz 16:38
Right. And when you say she was scared about the jumps, like the PT, the physical therapist wouldn’t have encouraged her to do them. If from a physical standpoint, she didn’t believe it was safe. But you’re saying just mentally, you know, it was a trauma when she injured herself doing the jump? And so the idea of I have to do that again. And what if that happens again? Is was like keeping her from really fully engaging in that leap or whatever.
Demi Agaiby 17:01
Yeah, right. Yeah. And this is something that’s so common, like return to injury or return to play for injured athletes, concussed athletes, we see this a lot. Like okay. Like what if I, you know I’m going back in the game. But who’s to say that my symptoms won’t present themselves again. Right.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 17:17
Right. Oh my goodness.
Demi Agaiby 17:19
Any injury really. There is a leap of faith that is required and that can be very, very difficult. There’s a lot of courage that needs to be to be cultivated and a lot of Resilience that needs to be built. So yeah, she you know we we really focused on returning to like jumping. And I can kind of speak to I don’t know if you’d be interested in hearing like the strategies that we used.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 17:52
Oh sure. Yeah.
Demi Agaiby 17:53
So we let’s see where do we start. We started with. Oversimplification. And this is one that she speaks to to this day. She’s like that was the most pivotal thing for me. And I told I asked her what is jumping like that you’ve already done. And she said, well, I can do like a single leg lunge. Like when I’m doing a lunge, I’m lunging onto one foot and I’m pushing off of my foot. That’s similar. I said, okay, what else? And I was just helping her connect the dots. Mechanically speaking, so that she’s able to understand, oh, wait, I, I can trust my body to take this to the next level, because I’ve already done all of this. It’s all I’m doing is I’m adding another layer. I’m adding another component.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 18:51
Right.
Demi Agaiby 18:52
So what you’re doing in that oversimplification process is you’re taking away the anxious thoughts, and you’re bringing in a little bit more logic. Right? Like. No, it’s. And when you think about it, jumping is not much more different than walking. I’m putting pressure on one foot and I’m taking off onto another. And that was a game changer. The self-talk of it’s just fill in the blank. It’s just like walking. It’s just like a lunge.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 19:23
Right. And I would. Guess with all of these things so I can do this, I can do the scary thing.
Demi Agaiby 19:29
Yes, latching on to prior success, helping her build that internal confidence and understanding that all of those moments are data points. And what I do is I say, okay, I want you to log those data points, those little successes, right? That data. Right, right. I want you to use when you’re asked to be courageous, when you’re asked to really step forward. It’s not like you’re just doing it out on a limb. No.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 19:56
For us in the world of, you know, mental health, we draw exposure ladders or hierarchies and they look like ladders with rungs. And you, you have the person go from like the baby we call baby steps from the least scary to the most scary. So if like taking that leap literally in your in your, in your dancers. You know, was at the top of the ladder you would like, you said you’d have her say like, well, I’ve already transferred from one foot to the other when I’m walking and I’ve done these lunges and, you know, you’d help her see that until she feels comfortable even imagining the jump and then, of course, doing it. But it sounds like it’s been really effective for her.
Demi Agaiby 20:36
Yeah. Another thing you just reminded me of was really interesting about her. She couldn’t even visualize herself jumping.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 20:44
Right.
Demi Agaiby 20:44
So this is something that we see is really interesting and injured athletes and athletes in general. Right. So one of the tools that we can use to help build confidence is visualization. Like closing your eyes and seeing yourself execute the skill, the task, whatever it is. And for her that it it the synapses just weren’t connecting. They weren’t firing it just no picture was showing. And this is really interesting. It’s one in a few that you’ll get that right. And it was because the fear.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 21:16
Right.
Demi Agaiby 21:17
Her her brain was protecting itself.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 21:19
Wow.
Demi Agaiby 21:20
Didn’t want to go into that territory. Which I thought was very fascinating assuming from my lens to be like, okay, how can we work our way up to kind of embracing this and not seeing it as like a threat?
Dr. Leigh Weisz 21:35
Absolutely.
Demi Agaiby 21:37
And actually, another layer of that simplification process was like she was holding so much weight to going back to jumping because in her mind, oh my gosh, okay. Once I start jumping, then I can go back to dance. And then and it was just like it carried so much significance as it relates to her identity. And what I needed her to understand and what we worked through was that it doesn’t have to be related to dance. There was so much attached to that singular thing that was ramping up her anxiety. Right? Of what it meant for her future.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 22:11
Right. Right.
Demi Agaiby 22:13
And so a lot of the process, too, was saying, regardless of what happens in this moment, the progress that I’ve made is still valid. And who I am as a person.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 22:25
Absolutely. And I was going to say, you know, we talk about identity a lot in these athletes or performers because of course, many of them have started at a very young age, you know, and have done this, like every single day or every single week for years and years. And then they, you know, maybe they get injured or maybe they just don’t make it to that level. And it’s like, well, what now? And so I know we’ve spoken before about the goal of building this multidimensional identity. And again, I’m wondering if you can like, speak on what do athletes or performers end up doing? You know, what do they end up doing with all of these things that they’ve obviously learned? If they don’t end up pursuing that line of work, let’s say from a career perspective. So if they don’t become a professional athlete or a professional dancer, it’s not it’s not a waste. But like what? How would you guide them to understanding what part of what they’ve done for all these years is going to actually help them in their future.
Demi Agaiby 23:26
Yeah. So this is something called transferable skill sets and non transferable skill sets, which is a really fancy way of saying everything that your athlete learns in sport transfers into another area of their life in the future. Right. And who they are as a person. Right. So when they’re in sport, they’re learning leadership skills, they’re learning discipline, they’re learning how to respond to failures. They’re learning how to problem solve. They’re learning how to communicate effectively and work interpersonally. Right. All of those things carry over into any line of work that they will go into, right?
Dr. Leigh Weisz 24:04
I always say I always driven people, you know, the most hard workers, the most disciplined.
Demi Agaiby 24:11
Yes. Yeah. Like I always say, when I’m. I’m talking to, like, a captain. Oh, boy. When I’m talking to a captain. And they have to kind of hold one of their teammates Inmates accountable. That conversation. They’re terrified. And I always remind them, I say, I understand that this is really this is a lot. There’s a lot of that’s being asked of you as a captain. This is part of your job. This is part of your role, and you are building skill sets for the rest of your life that will carry over and that will just catapult you further.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 24:47
Absolutely, absolutely. So, you know, I was going to say, I don’t know in the moment if if the kid or teenager or even adult could like, hold on to that. But, you know, I, I would imagine that thinking about all that they have had to do to hone a skill and like you said, leadership and grit and all that, that that’s going to for sure be applicable to, to further pursuits in their life. And so helping them see that is going to kind of free them up a little bit. If they’re in a place of, you know, like you said, you know, depression or burnout and thinking that my life is over. Like, what else am I going to do? No. We have to shift our thinking, you know, and understand how this is going to help us in our future roles.
Demi Agaiby 25:33
Yeah. And I think, you know, something that I speak to is like, you want to create a common thread, right? So if you ask your athlete what they really loved about their sport, what they really valued are the lessons that they really valued. And then taking those, you know, lessons or those those things that they’re listing and finding other ways that they can kind of still access those, those those attributes, those factors. Right, because they love sport for a reason. And once they get really concrete on that, you can be like, great. So we can take this, something that you really loved. I love working in a team. I love being a part of a team. Great. Let’s find other ways for you to be a part of a team.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 26:17
Right.
Demi Agaiby 26:18
And that helps build their identity outside of sport while still latching on to the things that they love about it.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 26:24
Absolutely. No, I think I think that’s that’s crucial. Yeah. I’m thinking about you said something about how how athletes respond to failure experiences and feedback. And again, that’s one of those things to me that’s very transferable to other areas in life and and certainly career. I’m wondering for for our parent audience, because it’s got to be very hard to be the parent of an athlete at this level. I mean, from just like the investment of time, emotion, energy, driving money, you know, all of going to the games and to. So what advice would you say for parents you can give to. I know you’ve had parents come into the office who are devastated when their kids lose a huge championship game, and the kids seem really devastated and the parents don’t know what to do. They’re almost like frozen in that car ride home. What do you recommend for parents in terms of how they engage or don’t their kids in conversation, how they help their kids make sense of that, adjust to it kind of just, you know, like move on. What would you say for parents out there?
Demi Agaiby 27:33
Yeah. First things first, strategize. Right? I think that at the beginning of the season, the most powerful things that you can do with your athlete is sit down with them and say, look, it’s not going to be a smooth ride out there. There are going to be moments that you’re going to come home angry, disappointed, frustrated, annoyed, tired. Let’s expect that. Let’s anticipate that there are going to be games that you’re not maybe going to play your best. Maybe you end up winning, but you don’t feel your best, right? Or vice versa. Maybe you end up losing and you played your best. Whatever it is, let’s anticipate the struggle. And now that we’ve anticipated the struggle. As the parent, I want to make sure that I can support you in the best way possible when those struggles happen, right? And I love this strategy because it gives the parents a little bit more of a game plan as opposed to like, oh no, they’re, you know, gripping the steering wheel like, oh my gosh, what do I say? Do I not say anything at all? You know? And it’s just like, okay, walking on eggshells here.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 28:38
You know this before we know what to do.
Demi Agaiby 28:41
Yeah. They’ve had an understanding of like, okay, this is what my athlete needs from me in this moment, right? And ask me when you come home like this or when something like this happens after practice or after a game, what would you like from me? What do you need from me? Right? Give the athlete the opportunity to speak to what they need and that will help kind of give you a role, a sense of responsibility, and it gives you a sense of relief too. And then always I would say like when those things happen, right? You say, hey, we have a game plan. I know we talked about our game plan. And I also want you to know that if you need anything else from me, I’m here, right? So when those things come up, allude to, hey, I’m going to follow protocol. I’m going to follow, you know. We talked about I’m flexible. If something if it feels differently, if there’s if there’s something that because let’s be real like yes we can strategize. And in the moment they could be like, actually, mom, I really just need to vent and and that’s okay. You know.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 29:48
Right. So. Well and actually again, that idea that, you know, in any in anything we do in life, right. Especially if we put our heart and soul like there will be times that we, you know, experience failure. We can’t win every single game. Professional athletes don’t. So of course they can’t. And there are real gains from coping with disappointment from, you know, eventually listening to feedback and working differently, you know. but I think that it’s hard for kids these days to experience feedback. And often they get defensive or, you know, they often really don’t respond beautifully to a lost, you know, a failed game. So I think it’s good that they’re experiencing that. But it’s also important that we have empathy and patience because it sounds like, you know, for a lot of these kids, it’s hard. They’ve been so good at this sport. You know, they’ve typically only received accolades before for for what they’ve been doing. And now they’re like the big leagues and they might actually not be the best player on the team or not win every not score every goal and things like that.
Demi Agaiby 30:47
Yeah. You know, and I just spoke to a group of parents about this like a few weeks ago. And one of the parents said, you know, after a significant loss or rejection, my daughter takes three days and she knows she’s like, my daughter takes three days. And after that third day, she’s good, right? And I think and I love that example because this this individual was high school. Late high school. Right. I said, that’s amazing. Now I want to hear back from you. And like three years, because that process of three days to cope might go down to one, right?
Dr. Leigh Weisz 31:24
That’s right.
Demi Agaiby 31:26
The psychological adaptation to stressors. So she might not need that full three days to cope, but she’ll need that maybe half day. She’ll know what she needs to do. And then it’s like, okay, let’s get back up and let’s do the thing. No.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 31:41
That’s real. That’s actually really neat. Oh yeah, I’m thinking about again, like a little bit off topic, but I think it’s relevant for parents these days that kids these days seem to be starting sport earlier, you know, younger and they’re, I would say pressured to choose a path earlier than they used to be rather than like trying a little bit of everything. And I, you know, again as a parent, like I see it, I see the sign ups, the anxiety goes up, right? But I wonder about, you know, your perspective on this shift and kind of like how good or bad is it for these kids? I know there’s been recent books written on this topic, but kind of, again, any suggestions for parents even of, like, preschoolers, you know, and elementary school kids? Because again, early on it starts like, do I show them a little of each or do I have to pick one?
Demi Agaiby 32:43
Exploration and curiosity are two. And I do consider these mental skills, or the mental skills that I have seen basically deplete over the over that year. I would say probably since Covid especially. Right. And that I think that is characteristic to this idea of like I have to choose a certain pathway and I have to stick to it. But we also see is when, you know, an athlete sticks to a specific sport and they reach about the age 15, 16 and they realize that they’re actually not as interested in it anymore. Right. And they experience a sense of fear to leave it. Because if I leave this sport, that means I have to start all over and it’s way too late for me to start over. Right. I can’t do that. Everybody else has already figured it out, and I’m going to start something new. I’m going to learn something new. No way can I do that. Right. This is something that we call identity foreclosure. Basically, you want to think about closing the door on your identity prematurely. Where an athlete at 15, 16 is like, no, my identity can’t evolve anymore. Like, this is what it has to be. And so I guess I’ll just suffer through it because God forbid, I learn something new. Right. And so those are, you know, two of the things that I’ve been noticing. And I work with clients on this, too, of like, okay, you’ve done this thing for X amount of years, and maybe it’s time that this commitment evolves, right?
Dr. Leigh Weisz 34:12
And if it’s not fun anymore. Right. That’s also concerning because how are you going to work this hard at something you’re no longer enjoying and not lead to burnout? Or is someone else driving you to continue down this one path? Right? Are your parents so invested like they have spent all this time and energy, you know, building you up so you can get that scholarship and for college, right. And so it’s tricky, but you have to figure out is the intrinsic motivation still there, you know, or not. And like you said, there are a myriad of positive outcomes that come with trying new things even in high school. But it feels scarier for them. They might not be very good at it, or they might, you know, they might not have the skill set at that point compared to other kids their age. So yeah. A lot of that.
Demi Agaiby 35:00
Yeah, I. Would say, you know, to parents Explore. Explore. The young ages ten and under. Explore as much as possible. Right. So. And if they tend to like a certain activity. Great. And you can put that at the top of like the priorities. But make sure if they’re ten and under to have at least two underlying components. Whether those are just hobbies or activities that their energy is still feeding into. Right. So this could be like gymnastics is like the top thing. But then they have piano once a week and then they are in the play at school.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 35:40
I was going to say that’s where the school activities are really helpful, because it’s kind of like built in. And then you can, you know, decide extracurriculars, 1 or 2 things.
Demi Agaiby 35:49
Yes. Yeah. And then once they get into high school, I would say take pull from them of like, what did you actually really enjoy. And let’s keep that that triad. Let’s keep that triangle. But let’s make it a little bit more substantial. And so yeah, maybe gymnastics is still that thing. Maybe it’s not piano, maybe it’s choir. Right? Or maybe maybe it’s student government or leadership. But always making sure that the triangle exists. Because there are off seasons in sport. And so they’re going to make a lot of sense.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 36:28
Absolutely. Well, and again, it’s so interesting like for you personally. Right. You were a obviously very successful serious dancer. But now you are in a line of work that integrates, right, that dancer identity and you’re coaching. So it’s, you know, it’s like there’s lots of things you can do with your sort of past life to integrate into your future career or future chapter. But I think for for kids and teens, in that moment, it feels like if I’m ending this chapter, you know, and it’s and then they get paralyzed by that fear. Like what? What happens next.
Demi Agaiby 37:02
Yeah. And there’s so much, you know, a lot of I think one of my favorite things in the world is when, like, an athlete comes up to me and is like, I had no idea this line of work existed. And like, thank you for showing me that, you know, because then it becomes something that they’re like, oh, this is an option for me. And that’s where the exploration and curiosity, the traditional lines of work maybe don’t give way to how they can integrate sport.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 37:29
No, that makes a lot of sense.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 37:30
Anyways, yeah. If you could give parents one more piece of advice, you know, as they’re on this journey and assuming they have a teen or a kiddo who is excelling in a certain sport, what would your advice be to them?
Demi Agaiby 37:54
Continue to praise, effort and bring awareness to the process. So yes, in their success, there’s probably a lot happening. It’s probably a lot of accolades. Continue to make observations that you’re witnessing. I love when I see you work through something really difficult. I love seeing you work with your teammates and come out with a win. Bring their attention to the process.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 38:28
I was going. to say, we give talks for parents and we say focus on the process, not the outcome. And it sounds like that is exactly what you’re saying, which is reinforcing my thoughts on the topic. But yeah, like they have very little control over, you know, every single, you know, leap, twirl outcome. You know, you’re helping them with that. But ultimately it’s like, what can I control? And if the parents are praising the effort, if they’re praising the hard work, if they’re praising the organization that went into packing up all the, you know, equipment that they needed for the day to have success. Right? All of those skills, again, are what’s in the person’s control and what will help them in life. Whereas again, if they played a good team or a bad team, if they won or lost, that may be out of their control. If the rest of the team did great or not, you know they can focus on the process and being specific with praise. Not just good job, you know? But what am I praising?
Demi Agaiby 39:22
Yes, that’s a huge observation and using those I statements, it’s really huge. And I mean from the kids perspective, wow, mom and dad are actually seeing me. Like they’re not just seeing me. They’re seeing the process. They’re seeing me in the process.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 39:41
Yeah. And whether it’s sportsmanship, commenting or leadership, like you said.
Demi Agaiby 39:45
Absolutely.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 39:46
That’s just as important or like, you know, I know you didn’t get to play today and you were on the bench, and that must have been hard. But I loved how you supported your teammates and had a positive attitude, like even something as simple as that. Yeah.
Demi Agaiby 39:57
Yes. Yeah.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 39:58
No, that’s. That’s great. I’m wondering for parents listening as we wrap up. If they’re interested in learning more about these topics, what resources of any kind would you share with them? And it could be podcasts, books, articles, anything.
Demi Agaiby 40:15
Yeah. So I would definitely say, well, I’ll, I’ll kind of connect you with my podcast. My podcast is Performers On The Rise, and you can listen to that on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Another really great podcast is called Finding Mastery with Michael Gervais. He’s a sports psychologist. Absolutely incredible. And he also has a book. I actually haven’t had a chance to read it yet. Fear of people’s opinions. The Fear Of People’s Opinions.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 40:43
That sounds like it could be good for everyone.
Demi Agaiby 40:46
Oh, I’m sure it’s. Incredible. He’s an incredible, incredible resource. And then as it relates to books parents, if you have not read Grit by Angela Duckworth, please. It is like a must read, and you probably will find yourself picking it back up multiple times. And then there’s also this book called I Can: The Teenage Athlete’s Guide to Mental Fitness that’s by Dr. Josephine Perry, and this one is a lot more hands on applied. There’s some activities in here that you could even do with your athlete that are really, really incredible. And it’s shorter. Angela Duckworth The Grit book is a little bit heftier.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 41:28
But that’s a classic. It’s okay.
Demi Agaiby 41:30
Yeah, yeah. But this one is definitely has a lot more applied activities that you can do with your athlete.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 41:37
That’s awesome. No thank you. Thank you so much. And your website. Maybe tell the name of your website.
Demi Agaiby 41:44
So you can find me on Instagram @beyondhorizonsperformance. And then my website is also beyondhorizonsperformance.com. I’m not sure when this will be airing, but I am still accepting one on one clients and up until basically mid January, I’m offering a slight discount to jump start January essentially. So winter athletes, that’s going to be for you.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 42:10
Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much for everything, Demi, for sharing your journey and giving parents some advice on how they can help their kiddos because it’s not easy. And everyone, please check out more episodes of our podcast, go to copingpartners.com and click on Podcast & Articles. And thank you, as always for tuning in.
Outro 42:33
Thank you for listening to The Coping Podcast. We’ll see you again next time, and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes and check out our podcast page at copingpartners.com.