Dr. Leigh Weisz: 16:49
Curious like about a before and after, of course, in a identified way.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 16:54
Yeah. So the classes so originally was developed for adults. And it’s currently kind of, you know, clinicians who are trained in Ro are adapting the skills for teens. And there’s a lot of research that’s showing some good promising results around how it’s effective. But so if we think about it, remember our body is, you know, addressing problems of they’re bottling up their emotions, kids who are like overly perfectionistic and who struggle to connect with other people.
So what we teach in the skills class is just to kind of simply is flexibility, how to be flexible. And they’re never going to go from like a to, you know, 2 to 10 in terms of being from going from rigidity to ultra flexible, we actually use the term flexible control. We need some degree of control for psychological health and wellbeing. We can’t kind of be otherwise we’ll move all the way to the other end of the spectrum and being completely under control. So we say flexible control.
How can we be able to adapt and adjust to changing environments, changing circumstances? How do we learn how to plan a little then let it go? How do we make sure we’re not compulsively striving for perfection, which will never meet because our perfectionistic mind will always want more? So we really focus on flexibility, teaching skills around that, also teaching skills around being open, open to feedback from other people, open to thinking. Thinking differently about certain circumstances.
People who are overcontrolled are really, really good at digging their, you know, digging their feet in the sand and being very, very fixed minded about their beliefs. So being able to kind of make some adjustments and being open to other perspectives, you know, I do specialize in eating disorders. So that’s really helpful for that population. By the way, if they have an idea of what healthy eating looks like, but then they’re so closed to the idea that this might be something. Another way to look at it might be helpful or possible.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 18:58
Opening to like different foods that they might have said were off limits before, or something like that.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 19:03
Exactly, exactly, yeah. And then how to build healthier, connected, meaningful relationships with other people that are authentic, that they care about. You know, we know that social connection is built. The desire for close relationships is built into our DNA. And we see that as, you know, people who are extremely lonely and that and who struggle to join with other people, their mental health goes down.
So we really focus a big part on making sure kids and teens know how to connect with their peers and not just their peers, by the way, their parents, everyone who’s in the skills class or an individual therapy has to have at least one goal related to social connectedness. Who in your life do you want to be closer with? And sometimes the goal is really simple. I want to be closer to my parents. I want to be closer to my siblings, or I want to have better friendships, something like that.
Or dating relationships when I’m working, especially with young adults.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 20:11
Right?
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 20:12
So one goal has to be focused on social connection.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 20:17
I love.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 20:17
That way. Shape or form.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 20:19
I love it, and so I know I already asked you like three questions. I’m going to I’m going to interrupt my own self. And before we go to the before and after, I know I was lucky enough to hear you speak, and you taught a couple of skills, and one of them was really related to social connectedness. I’m wondering if you are comfortable sharing one of those skills, kind of with all of us, because it really does help illustrate what that work is like. How do you become socially connected in these skills?
And I think it helps with your examples.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 20:50
Yes, absolutely. Now I’m thinking there are 30 lessons in.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 20:55
The one I remember is something to do with this?
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 20:59
Yeah. So when we think about people who are overcontrolled, we tend to see more emotionally constricted facial expressions, emotionally constricted and constricted body. So we’re going to see like more tight, closed off body language, for example. And so what do we mean by facial expressions is we’re not going to see a lot of expression on faces. But what we know is that to connect with other people, one of the ways we do that is sometimes we don’t even need a lot of words.
It’s just by moving our facial muscles in really specific ways to help signal, hey, I like you, or hey, I want to get to know you more, or it’s great to see you. And again, these social, these signals on these signals that we’re sending out to the world, you don’t even need to say anything. They just signal that, which is really, really cool. And this is a big part of the treatment. So we teach a skill that and they and by, by the time we teach it, the people in the classes, they know why we’re teaching it.
And they’re, they’re here because this is what they want to learn, right?
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 22:03
Right. They don’t look at you like you’re an alien and you know how to do.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 22:07
But then they’re like, and you might be right, but they don’t like to admit that because they don’t like to admit that over people who are over they like to be. Right. So anyway, teach the skill called the big three plus one, and it really helps us to signal friendliness. It helps us to signal cooperative intentions. Essentially sends a signal, hey, I like you.
And it’s it’s really simple. And I’ll ask you to do it with me when I do it here. And so what you do is you wag your eyebrows briefly, briefly. You take a deep breath and you engage with what we call a closed mouth, cooperative smile. So I’ll show you.
But this doesn’t mean you’re keeping your eyebrows up, because that’s just like a perpetual look of surprise, right? So that’s not the look we’re going for. We’re trying to signal friendly intentions to other people. And again, when you look at like kids who are learning how to like, socialize with others and they’re really overcontrolled, you never see their eyebrows go up. It’s so fascinating.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 23:07
Yeah.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 23:08
Is you just kind of, you know, if you’re greeting someone or even not greeting someone, you’re just kind of. The plus one is a lean back. So if you’re sitting. I did that big three plus one you’re leaning back is the plus one if you’re sitting. So the big three again is the eyebrows the smile and then a deep breath.
So the closed mouth cooperative smile is like that. And if and I was going to compare this to something in standard DVT but it won’t. But so it’s.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 23:42
Question. Yeah. Yeah. Why the closed mouth again. You had explained this to me before.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 23:48
Yeah. So the closed mouth cooperative smile, you can hold it for a good a good period of time. And it appears really genuine to the person on the receiving end. So if we contrast this with sometimes what I see with anxious kiddos like anxious teens is I’ll see what we call like a half smile, which looks like this.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 24:09
Yeah.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 24:10
See the difference? And then or sometimes you’ll see it like a smile that we would identify as disingenuous.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 24:17
It looks weird and not not natural. Yes. Yeah.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 24:21
And so really, the closed mouth corporate smile activates like these muscles around our eyes, and it’s much more genuine. It’s signals authenticity to the other person. And humans are just we are really good detectors. If someone is genuinely smiling at us or disingenuously smiling us. Yeah, it’s fascinating how the research shows that time and time again.
And so the closed mouth, cooperative smile is what we teach and what we really help.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 24:48
And it’s fascinating. I remember in the, in the seminar you said, you know, turn to each other, you know, in the audience and like, pretend you’re, you’re seeing your friend who you haven’t seen for so long and, you know, like you’re greeting them for the first time and we all want, like, you know, and our eyebrows automatically shut up. And it’s just so interesting. Like that’s natural. It’s wired into us.
It wasn’t like we did that on purpose. This was before you taught us about the eyebrow But it’s really fascinating that these kiddos, or these adults who are overcontrolled just don’t naturally do that in the same way.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 25:22
Part of the reason is because they’re really living their life in a state of threat. And that anxious threat. Q state we call it, which we also teach about. And and so if you think about it, when we’re really anxious, it’s really, really hard to genuinely smile. It’s really, really hard to to, you know, signal friendly, cooperative intentions.
What we’re signaling to the world is self-consciousness. When we’re feeling really anxious as opposed to friendly intentions, which is, by the way, when I talk to when I work with teens or young adults, that’s what they want to signal. Signal. They want to signal, hey, I like you or I, you know, and that I want to talk to you more, but they’re so anxious they’re not signaling that. And so it’s kind of like this vicious loop and the cycle that kind of people get stuck in.
Because if you’re signaling more closed behaviors and like more flat facial expressions or constricted, people aren’t going to engage because we’re just those friendly intentions aren’t right.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 26:23
So it sounds like, you know, for a lot of people this comes naturally, you know? And for those that don’t, the good news is they can be taught right how to do these skills. It almost feels like, you know, when kids are on the spectrum and you have to teach them like kind of rote, you know, skills about body language and tone of voice and how to. I mean, I remember talking with a kiddo on the spectrum who had a smile, kind of like what you were describing did not look genuine, and how to help him sort of like, relax it a little bit more, not hold it for quite so long, you know, because it just wasn’t doing what he wanted it to do. And thankfully he was able to learn, you know, how to kind of relax that smile, how to like I think he had to count his head a certain amount of seconds and go, but it’s it’s really it is it is exciting that you’re saying this is something that they can work on and it can get better.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 27:16
Absolutely. You know, I have oh my gosh, I have this mug here. Even like my my clients remember the eyebrows. So at first people are always like oh do I really have to wag my eyebrows? Danielle like what is going on?
Like, this feels so uncomfortable. Like, and they’re like, it feels so strange. And I’m like, don’t hold them up because that’s not the look we’re going for. So it does take some practice and it does eventually feel natural, especially if it’s in line with their goals.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 27:45
Right? Absolutely.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 27:47
Telling you to do these kinds of things to every single person you meet or in every single social context. But if your goal is to signal, hey, I like you to someone and I want to be your friend, or I want to connect, or I’m excited to see you, then these are the ways that we can signal those things.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 28:05
Don’t laugh, but do you help? You know, probably not as many teens, but young adults with flirting. It almost sounds like they would need to have a lesson if they’re going on dates and they’re not sure how to convey. I’m interested in you.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 28:18
That is my favorite thing right now. And the treatment, like researchers, are also developing a dating protocol and are working on it. And I’ve attended some of their talks around that. And yes, because not not even just with like flirting or like sending, hey, I like this person because oftentimes people will over control. They’ll come back into my office and be like, I went on this date I really liked so and so.
And, you know, they said they didn’t feel a connection, but I thought we did. I’ll say, well, show me. Like what show? Show me what things were looking like if I was a fly in the wall. Tell me what what happened.
One of the other things that we see happening in those situations, or just in developing friendships, is going back to the skills class is teaching not only asking questions. So when people are socially anxious. And they you know, oftentimes they’re taught well, meaning to ask questions. And what they do when they ask those questions is they tend to never reveal anything about themselves. And people don’t get to know you until you reveal who you are.
And so part of the skills that we teach in a really structured way how to reveal vulnerability to others.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 29:28
Right? Oh, I love that because it’s true. Like, I mean, when they’re little kids, I mean, I have kids of my own. I know when they were little, you know, kids tend to want to talk about themselves. Right.
And so we do teach the skill of ask other people, what did they do for winter break? You know, don’t just say, I went to. But you’re right. It’s a give and take. And you do have to balance, right?
Being able to like show interest and curiosity in someone else’s world, but also reveal some of your own internal world to really feel connected. Both, you know, for both parties to get to know each other in that way.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 29:59
Yes, you can only ask questions. We’re not saying never ask questions, but the you know, and that’s what we see too. It’s like, oh, how was your weekend? What did you do? Like, oh, tell me more about that.
Oh what’s your what’s your favorite food. What’s your favorite. Kind of like that’s kind of where sometimes those folks go. And it doesn’t just it doesn’t nail it. And so there’s a lot of fun interventions and ways that we teach, you know, young adults, you know.
Absolutely.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 30:24
So, so for the teenagers who are doing this, you know, adapted version of the arrow class, how many weeks is it? Because I know the original protocol is is pretty significant in terms of length of time. What does it look like for a teenager?
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 30:39
Yeah. For comparison, when I run and have run our skills classes for adults 18 and over for years for, for, for seven, eight years or something like that. And it that we meet once a week for about 8 to 9 months.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 30:54
Yeah. It’s a long time.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 30:56
So there’s no specific protocol yet for the number of weeks. But for example, our two of our clinicians who specialize in working with adolescents and who, you know, know roditi. And I’m working with them to kind of pare down to make it number one digestible and not like eight months long. So we’re really working on trying to figure out how to make it like a 15 week in-person class.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 31:25
I love the in-person part because I know, again, a lot of them are online. But it does seem like for teenagers, if they’re struggling with connections that would feel good to have other people in the room, too.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 31:36
Yeah, and let me tell you, every single person who comes to our classroom, considering it’s like I never want to go to a group type setting, I never I don’t want to do this. So never let that deter, because every single person I’ve ever worked with will say that, and then they end up.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 31:50
And tell us a little bit more about why they call it a class instead of a group.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 31:54
That’s a great question. So the treatment developer For kind of was observing that since over people were over controlled, tend to do really well academically in like a classroom setting with a lot of structure. And it is a skill where teaching skills, you know, I’m the skills teacher or the ambassador bringing people in to kind of the group and helping to, you know, model a lot of the skills and helping to foster that connection that we decided that he decided it was called a class instead of a group, because oaks thrive in that kind of classroom setting. So it’s not like this open process oriented group where we’re talking about and going deeply into emotions and what’s going on. No, it is very structured where we have a topic each week.
There’s handouts. The instructor, the therapist is teaching the skill, modeling it. You kind of work in small groups or in pairs to practice some of the skills. And then you get homework. And people who are overcontrolled love homework and they and they usually do it.
And then in the beginning of the next class we do a homework review. So it’s very much like a classroom setting. And I love it because it just works well for me because I’m also very I’m also overcontrolled. And you know, they, they that’s how they really, you know, start to practice and get to figure out like what works for them and what’s not working. And you’re meeting.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 33:22
People where they’re at. In other words, we always talk about in therapy like, you know, you have to meet someone where they’re at. And if they’re not at, you know, this place and you take them there, they’re going to they’re going to drop out. Right. And so it makes sense.
You’re kind of disguising it in a way. But they are real skills. So you in a way you are teaching them it does fit. But also you’re making it some somewhat more digestible to them. And like you said, it’s hard to be vulnerable.
And I think about group therapy as yeah, very vulnerable. So this makes sense that the classroom setting, taking notes, having homework really a binder.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 33:55
They get a binder and like, so we’re not even sitting in like a chair around circle of just chairs, because that’s just so really, you’re typically sitting at a table like a round table or a rectangle table, like all around in chairs, and they get a binder and they get all the handouts, and then they come back, usually with like things really organized in their binder and color code. It and it’s really great to see. But so yes, it’s like that classroom academic.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 34:19
I love it. So going back, you had said one of the goals has to be for some of these, you know, again, whether they’re teens or adults, has to be a social relatedness or social connected goal. I want to have, you know, closer friendships or I want a closer relationship with my parents. What if you can tell us a little bit about some of the success stories, and it can be with adults. It doesn’t have to be with teens, but kind of like, what did they come back reporting after they use these skills, you know, specifically?
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 34:50
Well, one of the things that I hear time and time again is. This just gets me, Danielle. Like this. These books. And they’ll see because I have like, the huge like.
Yeah manual and like that was written for me. It’s like literally that’s that’s what I hear time and time again, some kind of version of that. And so they feel connected and they feel understood with the material. And that is so important. And if they feel like that, then you have kind of that buy in where they’re going to to apply it and see that it actually can be life changing.
And I, I wouldn’t still be running these classes and talking about it if I didn’t see that kind of progress. And usually what I hear is things like, I feel like I can go into a room and even if I don’t even know anyone and still, you know, make some connections with other people, or I feel like I am closer with my siblings or, you know, people in my life that I wanted to. Some of the best moments is like like I, I shared something vulnerable and then the other person shared it something back. So there’s that like reciprocal that like I hear oftentimes that really like helps people feel more connected. And if you’re have depression that connection is such an important, I think, healing kind of piece to those kinds of mental health.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 36:21
Know we are we are. We have an inborn drive. You know, we’re wired for connection and attachment relationships. And it is so important to our health, you know, and it’s it’s obviously why babies, you know, need their their parent, right, their caregiver. Right.
Because of that attachment relationship. So we know how important it is. It’s really amazing to hear that you’re identifying in these overcontrolled people, whether they’re teenagers or adults, that that need for closer connections and some skills that they’re just lacking. And it sounds like you’re able to really teach them, again, concrete skills to use and practice and to become, you know, more successful in their relationships. It’s so neat.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 37:06
And be more flexible. I mean, that’s the other thing I hear a lot of like, and I love when, you know, people come back and they’re so excited, they’ll be like, Danielle, you’re going to be so proud of me. Plans changed and I was able to be flexible and pivot. And my friend or my roommate, especially in college, that’s kind of, you know, what? We were able to just kind of go along with it.
And I was able to go with the flow. Look at me. And I’m like, amazing. Like, that’s exactly what we’re going for. Being able to be a little bit more laid back, not so rigid and structured in every single aspect of your life.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 37:38
What would be an in college? An example of like again, that same that same kiddo in college who was really rigid about something. What would that look like before and then after?
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 37:49
Well, I think just being really rigid about studying it tends to be one that I think really gets a hold of some people really, really, really over controlled, especially if that’s been reinforced.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 38:03
The success in the past. So they can’t break that now.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 38:06
Exactly. And so then they go to college and then they have a roommate. And I love when my oh I have an under controlled roommate. Things are like messy and like unplanned and and so being able to connect with someone like that, being able to establish a friendship, being able to be flexible and be okay with things not always going exactly how they like them to go, are some of the ways that that shows up. But I think the biggest way that it shows up is in terms of relationships and dating.
Even in college and connections, and even in my work with adults, I’ll have people who have finished college and they they feel lonely. They didn’t develop those friendships there. And they’re like, I wish I had this class, or I wish I had this sooner, and then I’ll get kids in high school and college like, I wish I had this in high school. And I’m like, me too. So that’s why we’re, you know, working on that.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 39:00
So neat. And in college, do they have remote like, you know, where you can do it on zoom classes?
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 39:05
Yeah. So all of my classes since March of 2020 have been virtual. Before that I did in-person, but I just keep them virtual just for accessibility. I’m a psychologist, so I might have people in other states and but our one for teens, I think we’re going to do it in person.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 39:24
Yeah. And so for the adults, I’m assuming you see the face like it’s video on.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 39:29
Oh yeah. They know that.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 39:31
Yeah. And but you’re saying it could be across different states. You’re just getting a group of people who can do the same time because they are live. Right.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 39:37
Yeah. Oh yeah. They’re live okay. Yeah. That’s great.
And we use the, we like and they and I’ve seen deep connections made within the group. Within the groups, within the community that comes to, you know you’re together 8 or 9 months. And I use the breakout function in zoom. So they’re working with partners or in small groups to kind of practice things like the big three plus one. Other skills that we teach that are, you know, vulnerable and easier to do with like pairs or so.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 40:04
So neat. Well, so again, you’ve sold. You’ve sold, I think probably everyone listening, you’ve sold me. I was going to say for parents who are listening, who who may be more interested in learning more about the class that’s coming up for for teens, tell us when it’s happening, where it’s happening, how they can get more information.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 40:23
Yeah. So I’m so, so excited about this. It’s going to be in person, I believe, on a weekend. So I think it’s going to be like a Sunday for an hour in our Northbrook, Illinois location and it’s being delivered by two amazing clinicians who are so, so passionate about running this kind of group. And it’ll run for about 14 to 15 weeks starting in March.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 40:53
I think that length is perfect. Yeah, it kind of goes more like with the sports season or, you know, it kind of fits with what they’re used to.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 41:00
And they’ll get a schedule because, you know, I’m like, let’s do a schedule of like, you know, there’ll be some weeks off where it’s like spring break or, you know, certain holidays and whatnot. So they’ll get and it’s so great because people who are overcontrolled be like, just tell me ahead of time if you know, there’s classes that you can’t make and.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 41:16
That’s great, that’s great. And where can they find all this information? Is there a website they should go to?
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 41:23
People can just email me directly and I can just help quickly get them connected to whatever they need. Because initially when you inquire about it, you would, you know, the person would sit with an intake with one of the therapists who will be leading the class, making sure ensuring it’s a good fit, ensuring that they want to work on these kinds of goals, and that they do have one of those goals related to social connectedness. That’s really key that like they want to work on that.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 41:50
Yes, yes. This is not something we force our teenagers to do. No, no. What is what is the best way to email you? What’s what’s the best email?
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 41:58
My email is danielle@midwestcounseling.com.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 42:06
Perfect. And then if parents are just generally speaking, interested in learning more about this topic, is there a website, a podcast? What what else can you recommend?
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 42:17
Yeah, I recommend the it’s a website. It’s www.radicallyopen.com. It is a website that’s kept by the treatment developer and his team. And I really like it because there’s good videos explaining certain concepts that maybe I talked about today or other things that we didn’t get to. And there’s also a blog and that blog I’ll use so much in classes.
Actually, some of it’s examples of using some of the skills that are taught. And it’s written by, you know, licensed clinicians, but it’s written by people who are intensively trained, usually in roditi. And so it’s a fun blog.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 42:59
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Dr. Doucette for your time today and your expertise.
Dr. Danielle Doucette: 43:05
Yeah, yeah. You’re welcome. This was fun. It was great to chat with you and everyone.
Dr. Leigh Weisz: 43:09
Check out more episodes of our podcast, go to copingpartners.com and click on Podcast & Articles. And thank you, as always for tuning in.
Outro: 43:19
Thank you for listening to The Coping Podcast. We’ll see you again next time, and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes and check out our podcast page at coping[artners.com.