Dr. Lisa Novak 5:02
Yeah, and sometimes it’s even more nuanced than that. So if we think about something like a Learning Challenge, sometimes we might actually know exactly what the problem is. So it could be specific to reading or specific to math. And it’s very clear on the MAP scores and on the feedback that the teacher is providing that this is an area of struggle for the child, and maybe they’re already getting pulled out for different services or supports at school. But the truth is that something like a learning disorder and reading is not the same for every child. There are different reasons why somebody might be struggling with reading, there are these underlying cognitive skills that determine, you know, our ability to decode successfully and to read with fluency. And until we know which of those skills are those lagging issues that are getting in the way, we don’t even necessarily know what type of reading intervention will be the most effective for that child?
Dr. Leigh Weisz 6:00
That makes sense. So it sounds like you are like a surgeon you’re going in, you’re really trying to tease apart, right? What is underlying what we see as the problem, you know, so that you can go straight to the kind of the most direct therapy plan or treatment plan.
Dr. Lisa Novak 6:18
It’s an interesting analogy, I laugh because I feel like I’m actually only half of a surgeon because the surgeon is identifying the problem, and then going in and fixing the problem. And I do make it very clear, because families ask us all the time, you know, once we get these results, what do you do with that information? And our answer is that we disseminate it to the people that need it. So we are sharing that information with any private providers that the family is currently working with. We’re recommending new providers, new interventions, new services, or supports that may be helpful. And then we can certainly help liaise with the school team to advocate for what the child might need there. But we don’t do any direct intervention on our end, which is why we need you people like you don’t close it down. Yeah, exactly. I opened them right up. And then I’m like, Hey, Dr. Weisz, can you please come and close this up?
Dr. Leigh Weisz 7:11
So can you maybe give us an example of, you know, a presenting case you’ve had? I don’t know, focus isn’t isn’t a regular one that comes up all the time. But something that, you know, a parent says, for example, my child can’t focus, you can’t sit still. But then you do your neuro Psych. And you realize it’s not because of what they thought it’s not ADHD, like, how do you kind of tease apart two things that look the same? And it could be focus? Or it could be something else?
Dr. Lisa Novak 7:39
I mean, not being able to focus or concentrate is a great example. Because it is probably what about 80% of the people that call us come in with as their primary question or concern, you know, whether it is a six year old, or a high school student, or sometimes somebody who was successful through high school and then went off to college, and is kind of in that failure to launch category of why did this not go nearly as well as we had expected it to. And very often, the common challenge that the student themselves is describing is I just can’t pay attention, I can’t focus, I can’t sit down to do my work, I’m easily distracted. And so that is a ton of the work we do is to figure out what is underlying that difficulty concentrating. Sometimes it is ADHD, I think that’s the first thing we think about when we hear inattention is you must have an attention disorder. And sometimes they do many times, however, they don’t, it is something else that is causing that difficulty focusing. And that’s something else, you know, really runs the gamut. It could be anxiety, which is an often you know, a common thing that we’re teasing apart is attention related to, you know, a true neurological deficit versus more environmental more emotional, you know, we know that there’s overlap in a lot of these different symptoms. So anxiety is one depression is another. Sometimes it’s a learning challenge. Sometimes it’s a language disorder, something that’s making it hard for the child to concentrate. So the teacher might be saying, hey, you know, your kid is zoning out a lot. And they’re not really keeping up with the pace of the class. And it feels like they might, you know, be struggling to concentrate. But then we’ve come to find, well, yeah, they’re struggling to concentrate, because they’re not understanding what’s happening in class. And so of course, they’re going to zone out because what else is their brain going to do in that moment? So yeah, that’s a that’s a big one for us. Wow.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 9:47
Wow. So but 80% of the calls, that’s the presenting issue is like, they don’t seem to focus.
Dr. Lisa Novak 9:53
I haven’t run the numbers, but I mean, it is a very common question that we get asked and sometimes It’s that amongst other things, right? Sometimes it’s, I’m noticing my kids having more trouble focusing, and they’re, you know, spending more time in their room and you know, getting homework done has become more of a drag. And so you start to see this overlay of one challenge mixed with another that, you know, complicates things. And then we get to tease it all apart.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 10:20
It is it’s it sounds, you know, very complicated. And that’s why that’s why we all need you to be able to kind of go in and do do the deeper dive, have you noticed, since COVID, kind of an uptick of any, I guess, deficiencies? Gail, Jeff skill deficits, just anything that’s more common now than it used to be.
Dr. Lisa Novak 10:43
We’ve seen an uptick in pretty much everything I would say, since COVID. Started, which is not to say that the actual prevalence rate of these different, you know, disorders or challenges are things that we’re describing have necessarily gone up. What I think has happened largely, and what research has shown us already preliminarily in these first few years, is that things like emotional struggles are on the rise, there are more anxious kids, there are more depressed kids. And what we know is that when we’re anxious, and you know, our brains are working extra hard just to manage our emotionality throughout the day, it is way more difficult to do things like attend, and learn to do things like sleep well, which then perpetuates the problem. And so I think we’re seeing a rise in a lot of these different concerns is a function of and really stemming from some of the bigger emotional pieces that were tied to everything that COVID brought for us,
Dr. Leigh Weisz 11:45
right? So so it’s interesting. In other words, if you just stayed on the surface and said, Okay, this child is having trouble focusing, again, going back to that, you might miss that there’s underlying emotional needs that are not being met, and that need to be treated. And you might rush to psychiatrists for a stimulant, but that’s not really what is required.
Dr. Lisa Novak 12:07
Absolutely. And people I think, have actually done that, and then come to see us and say, Oh, we thought this was ADHD, we went to our pediatrician and, you know, filled out a quick rating scale, which will pretty invariably show some attention concerns if the child’s having trouble paying attention, and then try to medication but it didn’t help. And in fact, actually, they’re, you know, they seemed more dysregulated. And we were seeing these other challenges. And so now we’d like to really understand what what is underneath that? Right. Yeah, the you know, the other thing I would say about COVID, is that definitely there’s been, you know, to a degree in impact on academic functioning. And we’re really trying not to make too much of a deal out of that, because it’s not one child that fell behind or that was struggling, it’s really all of them, which is helpful, because then the class just has to move at a slightly different pace and pick up on on, you know, concepts that maybe weren’t grasped when they should have been. And one thing that has been really helpful with evaluations, I think, is teasing out a true learning disability or disorder, versus maybe my child just hasn’t spent enough time back in the classroom, especially the youngsters, the K at first grade and second grade, really hone in on those reading and math skills,
Dr. Leigh Weisz 13:27
right? Even Even I’ve talked to some parents of preschoolers and kindergarten, I guess, kindergarteners, who would have been in preschool that day, just, you know, they didn’t have circle time, they didn’t have time to play, really, with friends and read facial expressions. So there’s, there is a lot of ketchup, it seems and these basic skills, and of course, reading and academic skills as well,
Dr. Lisa Novak 13:47
definitely, and I haven’t, you know, colleagues and friends who are teachers or school psychologists sort of say, like, it’s not mathematically possible that this many students have learning disorders, like it just can’t be the case. And so they’re drowning and trying to figure out what to do. And they’ve asked me before, like, how are you deciding whether or not this is a true specific learning disorder, or whether or not this is just a function of the past couple of crazy years of our lives? And you know, the answer to that for us as neuro psychologists really lies in those underlying skills and characteristics that we’re assessing for. So sometimes, you know, let’s say I’ve tested two different let’s call them first grade girls, both of whom are really seemingly behind in their reading. What we’re trying to figure out is, does this just require, you know, general education and a little bit of additional additional support or is this something like dyslexia that’s going to require a different type of intervention? And so what we’re doing is these three doing assessments, we’re having them decode familiar words and unfamiliar words, we’re trying to see if they can read, you know, a passage and how much they can get through in a minute, as well as what they can understand of what they’re reading. And both students scores are low. Okay, so far, all we’ve proven is, hey, you have to get going and reading parents came in and told us that not a ton of new information yet, then what we do is the deep dive into those precursors, what do things like their phonological awareness look like, which is the ability to play with or manipulate sounds within words, which is a critical component for early literacy development, what do things like their orthographic processing skills look like? Another really critical component for learning to read and pick up on sight words, when we see the word the, we’re not sounding that out, we need to recognize that letter pattern, know that it’s the and then move on, as well as many other things like working memory, processing, speed, all these other things that we assessed for in one of those students, all of those skills were perfectly intact. And that tells us hey, there’s no underlying mechanism at play here that’s making reading hard, with a little more exposure, you’re going to do just more practice,
Dr. Leigh Weisz 16:15
you know, maybe one on one tutor, but, but she’ll catch up eventually.
Dr. Lisa Novak 16:19
Exactly. And the other student, it’s like, wow, there are some foundational challenges here, that phonological awareness is really well below where we would expect for a child of that age or that grade level. And so we are going to want a very specific kind of intervention to support that reading development. And that’s how we differentiate one from the other,
Dr. Leigh Weisz 16:41
right? And I’m just thinking how, from the child’s perspective, how, I guess, reassuring this must be that once you figure out the why, they can much more quickly get the support they need and feel less frustrated, because what I see in treatment is, you know, the kids are very frustrated, when they aren’t doing well in school, and they know that they feel bad, or they’re really struggling, and especially if we just don’t really grasp how to help them.
Dr. Lisa Novak 17:09
Absolutely. I mean, and that buy in from the child is so critical, right from the get go of our evaluation process. And, you know, parents ask me all the time, like, how do I talk to my kid about the fact that we’re putting them through this evaluation? Or what are we doing or what to expect? And I always talk about how a, what we want to do largely is take a strengths based approach here and say, you know, part of Dr. Lisa’s job is to figure out what you’re really good at. Because everyone has things, we’re really good at things that are hard for us. And if we can figure out what you’re really good at, we can use that to help with what’s harder, right, that can piece to really get that buy in is, what are those things that are harder for you. And sometimes the thing that’s harder, the reason the parents are bringing that child in for the evaluation is actually not the same as what the child might say is hard for them. But we don’t really care, because we’re going to answer all of those questions through the process. It’s what the child wish were different for them. And so sometimes it’s, you know, executive functioning concerns coming from the parents, and, you know, homework is a battle, and, you know, they, they’re losing all of their materials, and we’re, you know, they’re about to go into middle school, and we’re worried about the increased, you know, need for supports at that time. And the child might say, like, um, yeah, it was my water bottle sometimes, but it’s no big deal. But maybe for that child, there’s something else going on, like, hey, you know, my, my friends are, you know, seemingly pulling away from me sometimes, or I feel like I’ve been given feedback that I talk too much. And I don’t know how to do that. And there’s something else that’s bothering me that I want answers to. And then we joined together and say, get some answers to those questions.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 18:59
Oh, nice. Because like you said, it’s not an either or it’s not like there’s an additional fee to, you know, to answer the child’s questions, too, but, but that way, the child feels like, they are doing this work with you. And I know, it’s fun, but you know, they’re going through this, and they’re gonna get something out of it, too, that’s meaningful and important to them. I love that. And sometimes
Dr. Lisa Novak 19:19
it’s as simple and complicated as I wish my parents would not yell at me so much. That homework battle that’s concerning the parents from, you know, from this perspective of like, oh, man, what is this going to mean when they’re in middle school and high school? And how are they going to keep up from the kids perspective? It’s like, I just want my parents off my back. Yeah.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 19:40
Let’s figure out how to do that. Right? No, that that totally makes sense. This is a win win for all. So the other buzzword that comes up a lot when people call our office is coping strategies, or I should say buzz phrase. They want to know how can we help their kids develop more coping strategies and And I guess my my thought for you and my question for you is, you know, how does your work impact which coping strategies we teach?
Dr. Lisa Novak 20:10
The really great question and I would say it it, it comes down largely to what is the child struggling to cope with. And you know what other supports perhaps need to be in place for them to be able to access those skills. So there are some coping strategies that I would imagine and I defer back to you on this as the surgeon that’s actually going in and fixing things that we can use regularly, right, deep breathing, and things like that are going to be very consistent, effective tools for us to use. Sometimes the challenge though, is maybe we have learned all the coping skills, and when regulated, the child can list them off and tell you exactly what they should be doing to what they’re having these bouts of dysregulation, where they feel like they’re having an out of body experience, literally, and just can’t access the frontal lobe of their brain that has this perfectly stored list of things they’re supposed to be doing. And when we figure out why that’s happening, and I think allows them to become more available for using the strategies. One classic example of that is poor impulse control. Right, you know, if a child is either you know, diagnosed, ADHD or otherwise, but impulse control is a primary challenge of theirs, it may not be a skill deficit, it may be a performance deficit is I know what to do. But in that moment, my brain is ready fire aim, right, I’ve already fired before I’ve had a chance, right, I haven’t really given myself the opportunity to think about what tools I have in my toolbox to use. And so strategies for slowing the brain down and allowing for that pause moment, might be particularly critical for a child like that. Sometimes, you know, for talking about something like autism or other things that come with sensory sensitivities, sometimes it’s the overwhelm in the environment, it is too loud, it is too crowded, it is too over stimulating. And until we can quiet down the environment, I won’t really be able to access my tools. And so how do we find a way and a place for me to go to feel safe enough to access those tools?
Dr. Leigh Weisz 22:29
That’s really helpful. And and I imagine, I know, you go into schools and IEP meetings and 504 meetings, and I imagine that’s part of the work is kind of tailoring the interventions or the recommendations to figure out, you know, for each child, what’s going on? And how do they regulate better, because the dysregulation I know we’ve spoken about this before is just it seems like the highest I’ve ever seen it in terms of just what’s going on and being reported all around. And so again, kind of figuring out the why. So we know best how to help seems really to be the most important strategy.
Dr. Lisa Novak 23:09
Yes to all of that, and yes to the dysregulation, and just the upping of the ante of all of the behaviors. And it’s, it’s been rough it has been. Yeah, you know, the other thing that I’m finding we’re tailoring at schools is the, you know, again, in the same way that, you know, putting full effort into a neuro psych evaluation requires that buy in or, you know, getting anything from therapy requires that buy in from the kid, they also have to be willing to access their accommodations and supports at school. And what I’m finding more and more is that kids are so hyper attuned to their environment, and to how they’re being perceived that they don’t want to look different from their peers, they don’t want to get pulled out into that small group. They don’t want to, you know, get their extended time by having to take a test in a different room. And so it’s how do we balance not further and you know, creating further anxiety or shaming them or any of that with still letting them access the tools that they need. And I’ve seen school teams get really creative for, you know, helping support kiddos in that situation,
Dr. Leigh Weisz 24:17
that’s gonna say, give some examples. I know one example that I can think of is just when they’re younger, um, not not so much for middle school, when they’re younger, and there’s a primary teacher, they’ve figured out a cue, like a nonverbal cue, like maybe they’ll come and just like, you know, give him like a little tap on the shoulder while they’re walking around the classroom or, you know, something just to kind of help get them to, you know, maybe grab their fidget or take a little walk out in the hall to take a couple deep breaths and calm down, you know, figure out what is it that they need to do without, you know, feeling like they’re shaming the child in front of their peers because even at those young ages, they don’t want to be different and they don’t want to be perceived as different. But I was gonna say do you have But any other kind of examples that have that have been effective in the classroom that you can share?
Dr. Lisa Novak 25:05
Yeah, you know, I’m going to borrow something, actually from some of my favorite authors, which are Dr. Sticks, Rudd and Johnson, they wrote the self driven child. And then more recently, what do you say, and they are top of mind for me right now, because catch community action together for children’s health, which you mentioned in the beginning, that I’m a board member of just hosted a really fabulous presentation last night at GBN, where they came to speak to the community, and one of their biggest take homes is this idea of giving the control back to the kids. And I really do believe that so firmly that these kids, the more anxious they get, and the more stressed out they get, the more they feel less in control of their own lives. And the more it spirals them out a little bit further. And so sometimes I find it’s truly as simple as you can have access to this, if you want it, it’s there for you to use, we’re not forcing you into it. But if you’re finding that this room is too distracting for you, while you take this test, or you know, you’re comparing yourself to your peers, and getting stressed out that they’ve flipped to the third page of the test, and you’re still finishing each one, then you have a different space that you’re welcome to go to. But I think all too often we tell kids what they need to be doing. And automatic resistance to that that we could avoid. If we just give them a little bit more agency in the decision making.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 26:33
That’s really nice, just empowering them with the power to choose, you know, if this helps, you are welcome to go ahead and sit in the hall and take your tasks or go to a quiet space or use extra time. Yeah, I know, I know, I’ve had a couple of clients who’ve benefited from that, when the underlying cause or underlying problem, I guess, has been anxiety. So they’ve been looking around Exactly, we were describing young kids actually looking around and, and noticing where they are in comparison to their peers on the test. And it doesn’t matter how many times you tell them, you know, just worry about you there. They can sort of like shut it out. And so when they’ve excused themselves and go out into the hall, they are able to just kind of get down to business and take their time. And they’ve they’ve done much better. Yeah. But that’s really interesting about the control, especially because, again, going back to COVID. Not that we we have to stay forever in that. But control was a big issue. Right? What did you have control over an agency over? And what was out of your control? And it’s so interesting that that’s still such a prevalent concern?
Dr. Lisa Novak 27:40
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s, I mean, I think it’s been a concern for a long time. I think you’re so right, it just felt magnified over the past couple of years. And I think we we are not doing and I can speak for myself very much as a parent to younger kids, I’m not doing as great of a job as I think I can be about giving my kids more control over their own lives. And it comes out of love and, and a desire to support and to keep them safe. But it really in many times sends the message that if I’m not doing all these things for you, and controlling your your homework and controlling how you’re spending your free time and controlling all these things, then I don’t trust that you’ll be okay. And so it actually ends up making them I think feel less safe and more anxious.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 28:26
Right? No, it’s interesting parents it yes, all of us, ourselves included, are over. It sounds like over doing right doing too much for our kids. And I think you’re right, it’s probably I mean, the parenting kind of generation already was a little bit more of the helicopter parents side, right, we’ve always been a little bit more again, myself included, it’s hard to it’s hard to not right to engage. But then with COVID, I think again, everyone felt helpless. And everyone’s very hands on. I have a couple of young adults who went to college and all the sudden realize their parents weren’t there in the same way to proofread papers and to make sure they registered on time and they’re able to navigate through it. But they noticed it was a bigger challenge than they expected. And so I’m trying to reflect and help parents of younger children to kind of, you know, take a step back and do less and less because that’s how they do develop those skills to be able to be independent one day. And so that seems very far off for many of the young, you know, the young families that we’re working with, but but you can’t start too early, even just tying your shoe or what can you do on your own, rather than waiting for mom or dad to up to step them.
Dr. Lisa Novak 29:39
Exactly. And also helping them learn that they can solve their problems on their own instead of us, you know, swooping in to fix everything right away.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 29:47
Right? No great points. That’s a great point. Annie, I know you again, through catch have really encountered wonderful speakers and presenters, and I was curious if there were Any other kind of favorite mentors, speakers in the field authors that you can recommend books for parents that they might benefit from reading podcasts, anything like that?
Dr. Lisa Novak 30:10
Yeah, absolutely. A few of my favorites are Tina Bryson. And like The Whole-Brain Child, I think with Dan Siegel’s is one of hers. But another one and an author I’ve referenced frequently is actually Dr. Ross Green. And I find him coming up a lot in the work that I do with families, because sometimes, part of the question that parents come to me with has sort of this undertone that we have to, you know, bring into the room of, you know, is there a problem? Or is my child just being lazy? Is my child unmotivated is my child, you know, just choosing to kind of act this way, or to push people’s buttons or whatever it may be. And taking straight from raw screen, you know, kids do well when they can. And I am an extremely firm believer of that. And so that’s a conversation that I have with parents all the time, that I don’t yet know what’s going on. But when you’re identifying the problem, that you’re describing these, like meltdowns that the kid is having, at the end of the day, or this refusal to do things that feel like you know, regular daily routines in the morning and getting ready. And yet somehow, it just turns into a whole to do day after day after day. It’s not fun for you as the parents, it is also not fun for the kids either. It really is not. And so some thing is getting in their way, there is a lagging skill there that we haven’t figured out yet. So we don’t yet know exactly what to do about it. But sheer laziness doesn’t ever seem to be the right answer.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 31:52
I love that. Because again, it gives parents a little bit more patience, I think, an empathy for their child in these very difficult and trying moments, right, again, that we can certainly relate to on the parent side. But that we know, if parents are able to kind of look at it through this different lens. A it’s going to what’s the word? It’s gonna make the whole meltdown process much, much, much smoother news, defusing escalate, right. But also, like you said, it helps us understand where it’s coming from, why it’s happening, so we can work on it, rather than just repeat this every single day and be frustrated. Absolutely. That’s really that’s really helpful. And I think those are the calls that you’re getting that we’re getting to a lot more again, then than we used to, but probably like you said, there’s a skill set missing, and we just need to kind of figure out what it is. Can you give maybe one or two, like differentials as to what that could be attributed to? Then, you know, power struggles, things like that.
Dr. Lisa Novak 33:03
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think a some sort of underlying emotional challenge is often one of them. So whether there is heightened anxiety, even when the child is not saying, I feel scared, I feel worried, I’m nervous to go to school, they often don’t have the language to understand that anxiety is what’s underlying that. Or you know, depression or other you know, forms of mood lability. Sometimes it’s more of like a social skill deficit, where they really don’t have age appropriate social skills in terms of making inferences and understanding body language and facial expressions. And so they’re actually misinterpreting situations a lot of the time and Miss reading a tone as being overly negative, when maybe it was more neutral. And then that’s kind of causing them to escalate very quickly in situations where the people around them are wondering why you’re getting so upset, right.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 33:59
So differently than how it was intended. Yeah. And I imagine that’s where a referral to a social skills group or a speech path to understand some of those nuances of language and body language may be helpful, too.
Dr. Lisa Novak 34:12
Yes, very much so. And then the other one that I think is lesser named is the emotion regulation component of ADHD. You know, I think, I think a lot of people think about ADHD in terms of just I can’t pay attention, or I can maybe hyper focus on something, you know, my executive functions, my planning my organization, or I can be impulsive. But I think that what gets missed a lot is that there is a huge emotion regulation component to ADHD, where, you know, in the same way that they don’t have the brakes to slam on you know, so they’re blurting out in class. They also don’t have those breaks when they’re going from zero to 60. Emotionally, they’re getting triggered. It seems like what we call a small problem, but they’re having a big reaction to that small problem because they can’t slow themselves down.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 35:01
I remember attending a seminar with Dr. Russell Barkley who’s you know, one of the Guru’s on ADHD. And he said, you know, he really wanted to rename ADHD to, like emotional regulation disorder. And he was saying, you know, not successful so far, but I really, really, really think it should. And it totally makes sense, because there’s so many pieces that are dysregulated, but I think it was, it was just dysregulation disorder or something that he wanted. But it does make sense. And I think you’re right, it’s not something that most people really think about are no, but it definitely seems to be like a crucial component of ADHD. So not to not to kind of forget that piece. Yeah, yeah. Well, this is unbelievably helpful. I was gonna say any, you know, last pieces of advice for the parents listening, any other tidbits you want to share? Oh, that’s a good one.
Dr. Lisa Novak 36:03
last pieces of advice, how long do I have? You know, I would just say, lean on the people that you have in your circle to start asking questions if you’re concerned. And that largely includes the school system, you know, I think people don’t go to the source enough with the their kids teacher, or, you know, if their kids use the social worker at school to say, hey, you know, I’m noticing some increasing challenges at home. Are you seeing this at school? Is there anything that we can do, or really bringing additional concerns to any private providers that the kid is already seeing? You know, you can get a lot of information about, you know, what’s happening in different settings, and whether there seems to be a pattern or something worth further exploring when you reach out to the people around the child, as opposed to relying exclusively on what you’re seeing at home?
Dr. Leigh Weisz 36:55
Yeah, so it sounds like even kind of noting patterns, maybe jotting down notes, putting a Google doc together with all the providers or your spouse or just other people in the child’s life to try to figure out when is this behavior happening? Or when are they struggling the most? Just to have some information and then they can they can bring it to you if it becomes necessary, but, but just trying to be a detective a little bit. It sounds like,
Dr. Lisa Novak 37:18
exactly, that’s what I do all day. I get to be a detective. It’s fun.
Dr. Leigh Weisz 37:23
It’s very fun. Do you have do you have a detective hat do you have?
Dr. Lisa Novak 37:27
Good I need a magnifying glass and
Dr. Leigh Weisz 37:31
Sherlock Holmes of neuros love it. I love it. Well, everyone, you know, please check out Dr. Novak’s website illuminateneuropsych.com. She has a wonderful team. We’ve had wonderful experiences with all of the psycholo neuropsychologist that you have on your team. And so check out her website for great information. And please check out more episodes of our podcast found on the copingpartners.com website. And thank you so much, Dr. Novak for coming on today.
Dr. Lisa Novak 38:03
Thank you so much for having me. And I could do this all day. You know that Leigh?
Dr. Leigh Weisz 38:09
Thank you. Alright, take care.
Outro 38:13
Thank you for listening to The Coping Podcast. We’ll see you again next time. And be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes and check out our podcast page at copingpartners.com